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England v Wales
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Ian
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JB wrote:
Webb is quite right, think about when the pass is played forward and it takes a deflection on its way through. uUp goes the flag for offside and, despite some people shouting "but it came off their bloke!!", it's because of where the offside player was when the pass was played, and indeed because the opposing player's touch was not intentional, that the player is offside.

Yesterday, if the defender's header could be deemed to be accidental, then shouldn't the offside/onside decision be based on where Vardy was when Sturridge played the initial cross in ?


At the point that the last England player played the ball (Sturridge delivering the cross), no England players were in an offside position, so the intention of Williams is irrelevant IMO.

Not offside for me, though I agree with the deflection argument when the player is offside when it's played by his team mate, but the ball clips an opponents shin or thigh.
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Simon
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian wrote:
Danny Rose deserves a mention too. Started his Spurs career with a 35 yarder against Arsenal, so always had a lot to live up to. I haven't always been much of a fan, but he has come on leaps and bounds under Poch!

Both Spurs left backs on the field yesterday Cool


I agree - I thought he might be the weak link with Smalling but he looked good yesterday.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josefk wrote:
Me and my lad both called it offside, no deliberate playing of the ball so still offside. I don't think it's difficult to call either, only an absolute lunatic would try to play a back header in that situation and I don't think I've ever seen a defender play a safety header in the position. But that's football, nobody gets it all right all the time.


I don't really follow how if a defender jumps off the ground in an attempt to win a ball it can be accidental. OK it didn't go where he wanted it to, but he was competing for the ball nonetheless.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:
josefk wrote:
Me and my lad both called it offside, no deliberate playing of the ball so still offside. I don't think it's difficult to call either, only an absolute lunatic would try to play a back header in that situation and I don't think I've ever seen a defender play a safety header in the position. But that's football, nobody gets it all right all the time.


I don't really follow how if a defender jumps off the ground in an attempt to win a ball it can be accidental. OK it didn't go where he wanted it to, but he was competing for the ball nonetheless.


I have to say that I was thinking along the same lines. Definitely not accidental that he headed the ball, it was only accidental as to where the ball ended up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JB wrote:
Webb is quite right, think about when the pass is played forward and it takes a deflection on its way through. uUp goes the flag for offside and, despite some people shouting "but it came off their bloke!!", it's because of where the offside player was when the pass was played, and indeed because the opposing player's touch was not intentional, that the player is offside.

Yesterday, if the defender's header could be deemed to be accidental, then shouldn't the offside/onside decision be based on where Vardy was when Sturridge played the initial cross in ?


I believe so, but I think it might be about the definition of an "accidental" touch. I believe that the defender intended to head the ball - though obviously not in that direction i.e. he messed up his header. How relevant would it be that he messed up his header due to bodies bustling around him, a slight deflection just before the ball reached him, or being partially unsighted? Would I have a caes for saying that the miscued header falls in the same category as, say, a defender who while being challenged, badly slices his clearance to an attacker who was in an offside position when another attacker crossed the ball?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paulc222 wrote:
JB wrote:
Webb is quite right, think about when the pass is played forward and it takes a deflection on its way through. uUp goes the flag for offside and, despite some people shouting "but it came off their bloke!!", it's because of where the offside player was when the pass was played, and indeed because the opposing player's touch was not intentional, that the player is offside.

Yesterday, if the defender's header could be deemed to be accidental, then shouldn't the offside/onside decision be based on where Vardy was when Sturridge played the initial cross in ?


I believe so, but I think it might be about the definition of an "accidental" touch. I believe that the defender intended to head the ball - though obviously not in that direction i.e. he messed up his header. How relevant would it be that he messed up his header due to bodies bustling around him, a slight deflection just before the ball reached him, or being partially unsighted? Would I have a caes for saying that the miscued header falls in the same category as, say, a defender who while being challenged, badly slices his clearance to an attacker who was in an offside position when another attacker crossed the ball?


I think we are over analysing.

If someone kicks the ball and it hits a defender who was not trying to play the ball, then I can see it is accidental.

However if a defender is jumping, both feet off the ground, competing for the ball then there is no accident there.

It's a bit like the debate over 'interfering with play'. What did Cloughie used to say, if a centre forward isn't interfering with play in the opposition box he shouldn't be on the pitch.

Sounds like the ref used common sense to me. I must say the reffing has been pretty good so far, the best I can remember at a major finals for some time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:


Sounds like the ref used common sense to me. I must say the reffing has been pretty good so far, the best I can remember at a major finals for some time.


I agree that the standard has been high. Well done to the guys in the middle, and those assisting them.
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josefk
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thad wrote:
Josef, genuine question: I know the laws have changed and there is a concept of "being active" nowadays, but at what stage - in your opinion - was he offside..?

Subjectively was it only when he actually touched the ball? or in the build-up when he was ahead of the play and in the line of sight of the Welsh keeper, it didn't get flagged, but quite often seems to at that point...?

scratch


To me he was technically offside when the ball was played, clearly offside by a good yard but wasn't in a penal position at that time. He would have been in the line of sight of the keeper but was not causing any change of position or evasive action by the keeper so wasn't interfering.

The header was deliberate to the extent that no supernatural force caused the player to rise in the air, however, such as if a player goes to kick a ball and rather then kick it upfield he miskicks and it flies behind there was an attempt to play the ball but only a supporter of the other side could think it was a deliberate pass backwards negating any player in an offside position.

Therefore when the ball is played by the british player he became offside, the act of heading was deliberate by the welshman, where it ended up was not.

The active part is made deliberately confusing I feel but it really does revolve around the PIG of offside, only when one of the elements of the PIG is completed does the offence go from being technical to a penal one. That active element is why you get what so many supporters complain about "late" flags for, it's a shame as the rule of thumb is a late flag is a great flag as you don't interrupt play without a real need.

On a good note, and I don't recall the game, but it was interesting to see the offside in your own half law change being implemented in one game.
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josefk
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paulc222 wrote:
Simon wrote:


Sounds like the ref used common sense to me. I must say the reffing has been pretty good so far, the best I can remember at a major finals for some time.


I agree that the standard has been high. Well done to the guys in the middle, and those assisting them.


I think the standard has been great. Will reserve judgement on Clatts as he was effing and blinding at me and reckoned I shouldn't be let loose with a camera last month. Blooming geordie oik!!
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thad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josefk wrote:
thad wrote:
Josef, genuine question: I know the laws have changed and there is a concept of "being active" nowadays, but at what stage - in your opinion - was he offside..?

Subjectively was it only when he actually touched the ball? or in the build-up when he was ahead of the play and in the line of sight of the Welsh keeper, it didn't get flagged, but quite often seems to at that point...?

scratch


To me he was technically offside when the ball was played, clearly offside by a good yard but wasn't in a penal position at that time. He would have been in the line of sight of the keeper but was not causing any change of position or evasive action by the keeper so wasn't interfering.

Thanks for that Josef, shame those rules weren't in place when I was playing, I was actually quite similar to Vardy... standing offside & mis-kicking it into the net from a few feet out.
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Ian
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josefk wrote:
thad wrote:
Josef, genuine question: I know the laws have changed and there is a concept of "being active" nowadays, but at what stage - in your opinion - was he offside..?

Subjectively was it only when he actually touched the ball? or in the build-up when he was ahead of the play and in the line of sight of the Welsh keeper, it didn't get flagged, but quite often seems to at that point...?

scratch


To me he was technically offside when the ball was played, clearly offside by a good yard but wasn't in a penal position at that time. He would have been in the line of sight of the keeper but was not causing any change of position or evasive action by the keeper so wasn't interfering.

The header was deliberate to the extent that no supernatural force caused the player to rise in the air, however, such as if a player goes to kick a ball and rather then kick it upfield he miskicks and it flies behind there was an attempt to play the ball but only a supporter of the other side could think it was a deliberate pass backwards negating any player in an offside position.

Therefore when the ball is played by the british player he became offside, the act of heading was deliberate by the welshman, where it ended up was not.

The active part is made deliberately confusing I feel but it really does revolve around the PIG of offside, only when one of the elements of the PIG is completed does the offence go from being technical to a penal one. That active element is why you get what so many supporters complain about "late" flags for, it's a shame as the rule of thumb is a late flag is a great flag as you don't interrupt play without a real need.

On a good note, and I don't recall the game, but it was interesting to see the offside in your own half law change being implemented in one game.


When the ball was played by the last England player (Sturridge?) NO England player was in an offside position. Do a freezeframe.
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